Answer from C. diff. expert re "the spores" - one of the most frequent questions on this site.
"Generally, spores will be present in smaller or larger numbers.. and will be passed in the bathroom .. Only when C diff is eradicated with FMT do spores cease being passed.
The relapsing C diffs continue to have spores. The DNA analysis of stool shows that in the Relapsing CDI patients there are no detectable Firmicutes and Bacteroidetes. But it seems in the first infection where vancomycin clears up the C diff, in an UNKNOWN percentage of patients these two major stool components return and then no C diff is present and so no spores. BUT, unless DNA analysis is done [metagenomic analysis] we cannot know if the stool is back to it's original 'self'...
So it is not that clear. But after a fecal transplant these groups are restored and CDI disappears, and there are no more spores."
I have an article by another C. diff doc. he sent PDF. It is long and technical but we can decipher it together. I don't know how to attach using just the hyperlink but will find out
I know this is upsetting but remember, there are other infections that are caused by spore- forming bacteria: anthrax, gangrene, botulism (a form of food poisoning), tetanus, and Listeria. The spores are what make these diseases difficult to cure.
Even though I had C diff and my son (who had it as a child ) lived at home, he did not develop it again. I think the best preventative is thorough hygiene - hand washing, cleaning the bathroom with bleach, and washing the clothing of the C diff patient separately until the symptoms are gone. The first two times I had C diff, doctors did not realize it was "catchy." I worked most of the time and shared a restroom with other women, but no one "caught" it from me.
We can't worry about "the spores" or we will go crazy. Remember, 20l6 should be The Year of the Cure.
INFO RE "THE SPORES"
-
- Long Time Contributor
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:52 am
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
Thanks for finding this out, Bobbie. Wonder why he mentioned Vanco, not Dificid (they work in different ways and Dificid is said to leave more of the good gut flora in tact, hence the lower relapse rate).
Also, I wonder about the FMT making the CDI "disappear" since there have been posters on here (jeanniology, for example) as well as in the FB group that were c diff negative by PCR after the FMT yet relapsed after taking an antibiotic (most likely because spores were still present in their GI tract but undetectable to the PCR). I would love to think that in most cases, however, it does eradicate all the c diff.
Also, I wonder about the FMT making the CDI "disappear" since there have been posters on here (jeanniology, for example) as well as in the FB group that were c diff negative by PCR after the FMT yet relapsed after taking an antibiotic (most likely because spores were still present in their GI tract but undetectable to the PCR). I would love to think that in most cases, however, it does eradicate all the c diff.
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 12688
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:00 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
NikaNik,
I don't know the answers to your questions but will "ask the expert." Sometimes he answers me and sometimes he doesn't.
I don't know the answers to your questions but will "ask the expert." Sometimes he answers me and sometimes he doesn't.
-
- Long Time Contributor
- Posts: 699
- Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:52 am
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
Much appreciated! Thanks, Bobbie. : )
-
- Long Time Contributor
- Posts: 764
- Joined: Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:31 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
Thanks for the info Bobbie. It still sounds like the medical community is not really SURE if the spore can be eliminated by an FMT, since several people as noted by NikaNik can get a relapse or recurrence after an FMT. My husband's visit to Malaysia to teach a class several years ago resulted in him picking up a parasite that acts very much like C. Diff and Flagyl will tone it down but it never dies because it hides in the intestinal wall during the spore state and is impervious to treatment until it is active. I wonder if that is also true for C. Diff. It acts more like a parasite than a bacteria. However, his parasite does not take over when antibiotics are taken and good bacteria is gone. I fear C. Diff is going to be "one hard buggah to maki (kill)" as they say in the islands.
Aloha,
Anne
Aloha,
Anne
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 12688
- Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:00 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
I agree, Anne. Sounds similar.
-
- Long Time Contributor
- Posts: 10857
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:23 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
I had relapses after FMT. The worst one was after taking Cipro for another infection, but I tested positive other times too. I have had more than one FMT. I think in my case the spores lie dormant until conditions are right, but that may not be the case with everyone. Hopefully, researchers will find something to eradicate the spores one of these days.
-
- New User
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:38 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
So what does this mean? That unless you have the FMT you will be contagious and shed spores forever?
-
- Long Time Contributor
- Posts: 10857
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:23 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
I don't think you shed the spores all the time, only when the infection becomes active. I'm not sure anyone really knows though.
-
- Regular User
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 8:13 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
Tre16, that's what it sounds like to me too.
But I seriously cannot live like this worrying constantly about invisible spores in my laundry or falling off of me. If 3% of the population always has c diff in their system and it's so easily spread then how do most people have no clue about it? ugh.
But I seriously cannot live like this worrying constantly about invisible spores in my laundry or falling off of me. If 3% of the population always has c diff in their system and it's so easily spread then how do most people have no clue about it? ugh.
-
- Contributor
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:18 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
going to my 3rd F.m.t. at mayo next week. So do I dare ask what "2016 Should be the year of the Cure" means?"
Also, have any of you had bad experiences with Dificid? It hit me hard the first time I took it but the 3rd time is Unbearable. I heard it is also Supposed to kill spores, but it is also working on Killing the rest of me as well. I'm literally on codeine to pain right now.
Also, have any of you had bad experiences with Dificid? It hit me hard the first time I took it but the 3rd time is Unbearable. I heard it is also Supposed to kill spores, but it is also working on Killing the rest of me as well. I'm literally on codeine to pain right now.
-
- Long Time Contributor
- Posts: 3301
- Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:33 am
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
Nothing kills spores except bleach and we can't ingest that. Bleach will kill the spores on surfaces etc. I had a hard time with Dificid but it ultimately cured me of CDiff after over a year. Hope you feel better and kick the CDiff after this last FMT. Good luck.
CAROL
-
- Contributor
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:18 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
The c diff expert at Mayo confirmed... nothing kills spores but bleach. He also said that Even Dificid kills the good bacteria and can actually cause a C. Diff flare up. Just great. FMT 2:15 tomorrow... praying this works.
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 4193
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:05 am
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
Poor advice from Mayo
The only disease that dificid is approved for is treating active c.diff.
Trying to eradicate an asymptomatic infection with dificid might theoreticaly cause it to become active but using it in that situation is against all the guidelines a Dr is supposed to adhere to.
But because its only use to treat c.diff it can not be considered a causative agent (yet).
The only disease that dificid is approved for is treating active c.diff.
Trying to eradicate an asymptomatic infection with dificid might theoreticaly cause it to become active but using it in that situation is against all the guidelines a Dr is supposed to adhere to.
But because its only use to treat c.diff it can not be considered a causative agent (yet).
-
- Contributor
- Posts: 91
- Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:18 pm
Re: INFO RE "THE SPORES"
That's actually exactly what Mayo said...they don't treat asymptomatic c. diff because of the risk of antibiotic resistance and obviously there isn't a need to treat if you don't have it.
Is there such a thing as having c. diff with constipation?
Is there such a thing as having c. diff with constipation?
Return to “General C. diff. Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests