I spoke with Luann, at Dr. Tim Rubin's Duluth Clinic, in Duluth MN, this morning, and asked her some questions, (see my post in doctor topic, re: Dr. Tim Rubin, for the questions I asked Luann) regarding some details about the wonderful work they are doing, using nasogastric tube to deliver fresh donor stool to last part of stomach, to kill C. diff spores in small & large intestine.
Luann said she would email Dr. Aas, to see if he has answers to some of my questions.
Then, I asked her another question, which Luann said could be better answered by researchers at St. Luke's (in North Carolina). Here's the question I emailed to Dr. John Perfect (isn't that a great name for an Infectious Disease research doc?).
I googled, to find how to email Dr. Perfect, and used this link:
http://infectiousdisease.duke.edu/
"Dear Dr. Perfect, &/or whoever can respond:
Luann, nurse for Dr. Tim Rubin, gastroenterologist at Duluth Clinic in Duluth, MN, recommended that I contact your department, for answers to some research questions I have:
I'm interested in hearing from a researcher to learn about what research at Duke is happening, if any, regarding placing live, fresh, donor stool suspension (after donor stool has been tested and found to be free of C. diff., ova & parasites, other pathogens, antibiotic residues, etc., and washed with sterile saline, then filtered twice--the Duluth Clinic protocol, where Dr. Tim Rubin instills the donor stool suspension via nasogastric tube into antrum of stomach) into ENTERIC COATED CAPSULES, which would be taken orally, while donor stool was still fresh, as a way to attempt to repopulate the small & large intestines, with healthy stool flora (like various bacteriodes species, non-pathogenic E. coli, etc.), that had been destroyed by antibiotics, and then the donor stool in enteric coated capsules, would theoretically eradicate C. diff. SPORES, that may be still in small & large intestines of patients who have recurrent C. diff. (Clostridium difficile)
Sincerely,
Carol Sidofsky (retired RN)...."
The reason I asked this question, is that I am wondering if this could be a way, theoretically, to get good, live, pre-tested, donor stools (containing good bacteria) to the small intestine, to kill C. diff. spores & bacteria, without needing to travel, and without needing either a nasogastric tube, an endoscope, or, an acid blocker. Just wondering.
research? re: enteric coated capsules of live donor stool?
-
concerned lady
- Regular User
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:14 am
research? re: enteric coated capsules of live donor stool?
former RN/nurse, former VCD/vocal cord dysfunction patient.
-
concerned lady
- Regular User
- Posts: 35
- Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:14 am
Dr. Aaa says theoetically possible...
I just got a wonderful callback from Dr. Aas,
from the Duluth Clinic! He said that my question about
the possibility of enteric coated capsules, containing
good donor stool (OK'd by testing) was theoretically possible,
and that studies about this may be 10 years out (in future).
He told me that I had no idea of how much
he and the other Duluth docs had to work on
the FDA (Food & Drug Administration), just to get
acceptance of their nasogastric method of
transferring stool into a patient's stomach,
for repeat C. diff. patients!
Dr. Aas says that he considers the Duluth Clinic's methods
NOT EXPERIMENTAL ANY MORE, since they have
about a 95% success rate.
I asked him to consider studying why anyone
ever failed their methods. (He's a lovely person,
who had so much info to offer, and who also listens
to any ideas, even if far out, etc.)
Dr. Aas said that moving in the direction of
enteric coated capsules, that there had been
some studies done at Duke University, but that
the researcher PhD fellow, has since moved over
to UCLA (University of California, in Los Angeles).
Dr. Aas didn't remember his name, but said that
this researcher, about 2 1/2 months ago, told Dr. Aas
that he (the researcher), was setting up a lab,
in order to do the following C. diff. research:
He will do DNA analysis of all species of bacteria,
from patients who have had the Duluth Clinic protocol,
analyzing bacteria's DNA, from both before and
after the Duluth Clinic naso-gastric healthy donor stool
transfer, to see which types/species of bacteria seem
to be the "good ones", that can kill C. diff. spores.
Dr. Aas doesn't know if this research has begun yet.
I'll be calling UCLA, to see what I can find out.
If someone else had previously posted about this, I apologize,
that I didn't remember (content, or where it was posted).
This research he said, should tell more about risk factors of
abnormal flora (missing good bacteria I think he meant?),
for getting C. diff.
I asked Dr. Aas if any probiotics could kill C. diff. spores.
He didn't really answer yes or no, but left the door open, that
maybe some probiotics could possibly kill C. diff. spores.
Regarding theoretically using enteric coated capsules of
fresh safe donor stool, by mouth, Dr. Aas said that different
bacteria might have different rates of surviving the transit
time it would take, for the capsules to get from mouth to
small intestine, and that research would need to be done,
before any docs could apply to the FDA, for such an
experimental protocol (method).
Dr. Aas said that the UCLA research (not sure if started yet),
would be needed, before the idea of clinical trials using
enteric coated capsules could be considered.
When I told him of my case, he said I should continue
what I'm doing for at least another month or 2, and let
him know how I'm doing.
He said if I get worse, &/or have a relapse, that he
recommends I take Flagyl or Vancomycin. I thanked him,
and said I would take his advice into consideration.
He knows I'm a maverick, not taking
either Flagyl or Vanco, just probiotics,
and he still spoke with me.
I thanked him for all his wonderful work,
that is saving lives!
After I asked him about possible risk of low
stomach acid, regarding getting C. diff., he
said he will look back at patients' info, to see
if there is any correlation between taking PPI's,
and getting C. diff., in their Duluth patients.
He said he remembered a study from an ICU/
Intensive Care Unit, that did find such a correlation,
but that he's not convinced (yet) about this. He was
so open minded, it was amazing.
Wow. I'm still reeling from this wonderful experience
of speaking with Dr. Aas (pronounced "Oze"/Danish name).
I read the interview, that is on this website, and again,
thank everyone for their sharing info and caring!
So, keep asking questions!
Carol/Concerned lady
fsds@rkymtnhi.com
from the Duluth Clinic! He said that my question about
the possibility of enteric coated capsules, containing
good donor stool (OK'd by testing) was theoretically possible,
and that studies about this may be 10 years out (in future).
He told me that I had no idea of how much
he and the other Duluth docs had to work on
the FDA (Food & Drug Administration), just to get
acceptance of their nasogastric method of
transferring stool into a patient's stomach,
for repeat C. diff. patients!
Dr. Aas says that he considers the Duluth Clinic's methods
NOT EXPERIMENTAL ANY MORE, since they have
about a 95% success rate.
I asked him to consider studying why anyone
ever failed their methods. (He's a lovely person,
who had so much info to offer, and who also listens
to any ideas, even if far out, etc.)
Dr. Aas said that moving in the direction of
enteric coated capsules, that there had been
some studies done at Duke University, but that
the researcher PhD fellow, has since moved over
to UCLA (University of California, in Los Angeles).
Dr. Aas didn't remember his name, but said that
this researcher, about 2 1/2 months ago, told Dr. Aas
that he (the researcher), was setting up a lab,
in order to do the following C. diff. research:
He will do DNA analysis of all species of bacteria,
from patients who have had the Duluth Clinic protocol,
analyzing bacteria's DNA, from both before and
after the Duluth Clinic naso-gastric healthy donor stool
transfer, to see which types/species of bacteria seem
to be the "good ones", that can kill C. diff. spores.
Dr. Aas doesn't know if this research has begun yet.
I'll be calling UCLA, to see what I can find out.
If someone else had previously posted about this, I apologize,
that I didn't remember (content, or where it was posted).
This research he said, should tell more about risk factors of
abnormal flora (missing good bacteria I think he meant?),
for getting C. diff.
I asked Dr. Aas if any probiotics could kill C. diff. spores.
He didn't really answer yes or no, but left the door open, that
maybe some probiotics could possibly kill C. diff. spores.
Regarding theoretically using enteric coated capsules of
fresh safe donor stool, by mouth, Dr. Aas said that different
bacteria might have different rates of surviving the transit
time it would take, for the capsules to get from mouth to
small intestine, and that research would need to be done,
before any docs could apply to the FDA, for such an
experimental protocol (method).
Dr. Aas said that the UCLA research (not sure if started yet),
would be needed, before the idea of clinical trials using
enteric coated capsules could be considered.
When I told him of my case, he said I should continue
what I'm doing for at least another month or 2, and let
him know how I'm doing.
He said if I get worse, &/or have a relapse, that he
recommends I take Flagyl or Vancomycin. I thanked him,
and said I would take his advice into consideration.
He knows I'm a maverick, not taking
either Flagyl or Vanco, just probiotics,
and he still spoke with me.
I thanked him for all his wonderful work,
that is saving lives!
After I asked him about possible risk of low
stomach acid, regarding getting C. diff., he
said he will look back at patients' info, to see
if there is any correlation between taking PPI's,
and getting C. diff., in their Duluth patients.
He said he remembered a study from an ICU/
Intensive Care Unit, that did find such a correlation,
but that he's not convinced (yet) about this. He was
so open minded, it was amazing.
Wow. I'm still reeling from this wonderful experience
of speaking with Dr. Aas (pronounced "Oze"/Danish name).
I read the interview, that is on this website, and again,
thank everyone for their sharing info and caring!
So, keep asking questions!
Carol/Concerned lady
fsds@rkymtnhi.com
former RN/nurse, former VCD/vocal cord dysfunction patient.
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