Several Qs: overlap probiotics/flagyl, "running" f

[robert23]

HI all, I'll apologize in advance for my multitude of questions. I feel you all are more experienced in this than my Dr. so here goes. Posting this in questions forum - seems early for a case history.

Quick background: Came down with symptoms a little over 2 mos ago and almost a month before I really saw a doctor. Dr. prescribed 7 days of Flagyl before testing - didn't work. Then test pos. for C-diff - not sure which strain. Back on Flagyl 3 x 500mg/day for 10 days and towards the end of that now. Down to only a few BMs per day - not solid but not runny.

Thanks to this site and you all (and no thanks to my GP), I feel I've gained a clue about what to do. Have tried to clean up the house as best as possible, lots of handwashing, and I have an appointment with a Chiropractor on Friday who has a probiotic regimen laid out for me.

My questions are multifold (if I'm effectively asking for "medical advice", my apologies):

1st off, my last day of Flagyl is Saturday morning and I don't get my probiotics till Friday (*and*, I don't know what he's ganna give me, if he's really any good, etc). That basically starts me on probiotics just at the end of the Flagyl. Q: do you think I should ask my Dr. for more Flagyl so I can overlap the probiotics for a longer period?

2nd - I keep reading about re-infection and infecting others. I've read the faq and am following cleaning/washing proceedures. But it just seems impossible to remove the spores from the house - it must be everywhere! I think if I was wealthy I'd abandon everything I own and move out. Maybe stay in a different place every night and buy new clothes every day. I'm really concerned that I'll be re-infected before the probiotics have a chance to help my flora system. Or re-infected later when I dust some part of the house I haven't cleaned (and there are a lot of places I haven't gotten to cleaning yet). Q: does anyone ever "run" from c-diff like I described? Seems like if I could not be exposed to any spores right after the antibiotics that would be ideal. I don't see how that's possible if I stay here. And now there's the cat issue - see below. I'm tempted to strip naked, run through a car wash pouring bleach on myself, and then leave town.

3rd: I'm a renter and my landlord is in the process of selling the house. They give me 24 hrs notice from time to time and enter the house. Do I need to tell them not to let anyone who's on antibiotics enter? I'm a little afraid of the ramifications of that (they may just kick me out) but right is right and I'll do what I have too.

4th: My normally semi-chronic heartburn completely disappeared with onset of symptoms. I haven't eaten a Tums in two months and I've normally kept them handy for a reason and I can now eat foods that normally destroy me with heartburn. What I can't remember is which came first. Now from this site, I see that stomach acid helps kill c-diff. I had been trying out a health drink called Monavie the week or so before my symptoms started. That product is *claimed* to have all sorts of health benefits. I wonder if it's possible it somehow "cured" my heartburn (over cured?) and allowed the c-diff to take off. My Dr. was/is completely disinterested in these details and hasn't even addressed *why* I got c-diff (no antibiotics, no hospital exposure). Any thoughts on the heartburn or Monavie correlation?

5th: My goodness, I went through the questions forum to see if I was asking the same old question and came up with another. I am/have been in contact with a stray cat (well, it sort of has a human). It is not well either and I must say, it started getting worse around the time I did - I think. Now I'm really confused. I have been feeding it because it can't approach it's own home due to another cat. I've tried to "rinse off" after touching the cat but I'm never been that serious about washing and my back door is in the kitchen - through which I interact w/the cat. Any thoughts on the cat thing (I see others have confirmed it can happen)? It will be sticky trying to get away from it.

Anyway, sorry to ask so many questions. I'm just really concerned and my Dr. is clearly painting by the numbers. I wouldn't even know what I have if I hadn't insisted she write it down on a piece of paper. Yes I'm still towards the beginning of my treatment but I think taking this as lightly as my Dr. is a mistake I could regret later.

Thanks any and all for your opinions and to those still afflicted, I hope you heal soon!!!!

[Sheila1]

Hi Robert,

Sounds like you've been doing alot of reading already and that's great. If you haven't read Dr. Clifford McDonald's article or Dr. Fordtran's, I highly recommend them.
Dr. Clifford McDonald's Article

Dr. Fordtran, Baylor Univ. Article

Laughing with you - I got a visual of all of us cdiff victims lined up at the local car wash.....

Don't fret so much about getting or giving cdiff. The Hygiene section pretty well covers it. It's not contagious, it is classified infectious - big difference. Spores/bacteria are only transferred by ingesting them, usually from hands, or direct rectally - they haven't been shown to be acquired by breathing (that's why it's not classified as contagious) but are acquired by touching and then putting hands around mouth. If you thoroughly wash your hands regularly, especially after using the restroom and before cooking and eating; and thoroughly clean handles and knobs and your toilet seat you will probably be fine. Read the recent posts in General Discussion titled "Newly Diagnosed" there are several recent posts from the moderators on hygiene.

Your third question is answered above too.

It has not been confirmed that animals and people can transmit cdiff to each other. I feel like it is a possibility, because many other parasites and diseases are passed back and forth, but cdiff hasn't been confirmed in that respect. Anyone handling pets should be careful they not put their hands anywhere near their face and mouth until thoroughly washing them. If the cat is walking on your tables and counters you should obviously pay extra attention to cleaning those areas before using them for anything... I have a dog, 2 cats and 2 horses (and a daughter and a husband) and none of them have acquired it from me. I also had a friend stay with me for a few days when I was so sick and she didn't get it either.

We can't shut out the world or live in a bubble, we can only be as careful as possible. Breaking the habit of hands around face and mouth is often a difficult habit to break and a habit that most people have in some way or form.

It's interesting to me you mention not having your prior stomach troubles when you got sick with cdiff. I've mentioned to my doctor that I had no IBS whatsoever while on Flagyl or Vanco and could eat things I couldn't eat before - but now (the last month) I have stomach troubles and have to be careful what I eat.... my doc didn't pay attention to that either, fascinating to us but I guess it's just not something interesting to them. And I'm not sure it matters, we certainly can't stay on the medicine forever just to eat jalapenos without problems :)

Like you, we don't know how or why I got cdiff. I was not hospitalized nor on antibiotics either. I got mild cdiff in the fall of 2005 and was just diagnosed with "IBS" and given Prevacid and all that stuff. But my body righted itself after 4 months and I no longer had to take any medicines. Then I had surgery 6 months later, antibiotics, and severe cdiff (that's when I knew exactly what I'd had the fall before). Community-acquired cdiff is becoming quite a bit more common. CDiff has been around for decades, it's the newer more resistant strains that are causing the bigger problems.

Take a deep breath and relax, keep your hands washed and I think you'll be fine.

[robert23]

Thanks for the info and reassurance Sheila!

Today I spoke with a woman who's doing a study on cdiff and she at least was interested in the lack-of-heartburn-since-cdfiff thing too. For what it's worth, I had no heartburn before I started getting meds too. It's like the bid D started and the heartburn stopped. But one probably came first and I wish I knew which.

The cat possibility blows my mind. There actually was an instance recently (wish I could remember when *exactly*) when I may have come into mouth-fecal contact with the cat. That sounds absurd but the cat was on an outside table and I kept getting a wiff of something really smelly and then it'd go away... but the cat looked clean. I was trying to inspect that cat when it turned around and its tail brushed my face and I got the wiff again. I remember being grossed out when I realized it had a dirty tail and it had just touched my face. Unfortunately, I didn't go wash my face with bleach. That'll learn me. ;-)

Thanks again Sheila!

Bob

[Sheila1]

Bob,

For the life of me I can't remember if my other stomach troubles stopped with the d. or the meds...wish I could now, as I said this is very interesting to me. I know I could eat bananas, potatoes and all sorts of things that prior to being sick made me gassy and bloated, McD's french fries being the worst offender and dearly loved...no problems! And had no heartburn or indigestion at all. Do keep me posted on anything you might learn from this gal doing the study.

I haven't studied up on other stomach issues but am thinking maybe something along these lines - cdiff makes everything run right through the intestines at light speed so when there's no cdiff and things back up that's what can be a cause of the other stomach issues too (rather than ONLY being relegated to the actual stomach, it's effected by matter beyond the stomach) and so on. I do know, for instance, that severe constipation will make one very nauseous (have seen it in my elderly residents). I'll have to study on that...it seems a shame to study so much on the intestinal tract and not the stomach :)

Be careful of the stray cat...most true 'strays' carry a boatload of parasites and diseases. Most parasites that's cats get are transferrable. If you really feel you may have come in such close contact with undesirable matter you might ask your doc to test for all the common parasites, wouldn't hurt and might help. It is quite common, actually, for people to have them and they can cause all the symptoms similar to IBS on down to cdiff-like symptoms. http://www.appliedozone.com/parasites.html

Hope you're feeling better!

[Waldog]

Robert,

I agree with everything Sheila said above!

I also agree with exactly how you are feeling right now.

But as she said, we can't live in a bubble, the best we can do is really all we can do.

I would hate to think we could get it from animals that easily. It may be possible who really knows.

If you have not been on antibiotics or anywhere there could have been and infestation of C. Diff, for example a nursing home, then who knowns where it could have came from originally.

If you have read any of my case history in the general discussion area, you will note that I have had C. Diff symptoms for over 15 years!

Many here, and my doctor seem to think this is impossible, but these doctors are also the same people who think C. Diff is "rare" and continue to be in denial that there are people have have had it for years.

I don't agree that is the case. I think it is possible to carry it for quite some time and for it to flare up with antibiotics or with little or no explaination.

As for the probiotics, in my opinion they cannot hurt anything except for your wallet. They can be expensive. I have been taking Florastor and Culturelle together since they are suppose to both be resistant to Vancocin, but I don't think Flagyl. Just space them out as far as possible.

As for heartburn, that is interesting as well, because most of us seem to have aquired the opposite problem. I used to be able to eat, (and can still occasionally) spicy foods, and just about anything without hearburn.

In fact, I didn't even really know what it was when it started happening because I never had it before I was diagnosed with and treated for C. Diff.

I have a suspicion is is a side effect of the meds or just C. Diff in general.

It seems like most doctors are "painting by the numbers". I have to take my 3rd lab text next week, and if the results are positive, I am probably going to head out of this area in search of an expert.

I wish you luck! This is truly the place none of us want to be, but thank god we are all here for each other!

[Bobbie]

Sheila,
Posted Dr. Fordtran's article in FAQ-Articles Written by Posters. Thx.

[Bobbie]

Robert23,
Welcome to the site. Read the first forum ALL USERS READ THIS FIRST & its subtopics. They will guide you in using the site & answer some of the most frequent questions. Read Dr. Borody’s & Dr. McDonald’s articles and the areas in FAQ that interest you – especially FAQ-Hygiene, Nutrition, & Testing.

If you continue to have problems, consult a GI. Good luck.

[Nan]

Most of the good bacteria in the probiotics seem to be killed off by the antibiotic, so overlapping probably won’t do much. The probiotic Floraster is a yeast and won’t be killed by Flagyl, but the other probiotics might be.

I have been treating my cdiff for over 2 years. My husband has not caught it, sharing a bathroom nor have my visiting kids or visiting grandkids. As a matter of fact my last 2 grandkids have been born since I have been sick, and even had one of the infants sleeping over numerous times. No one has caught it. I do practice good hygiene and handwashing.

Who knows where any of us caught this. I also had cdiff symptoms for some time which were similar to IBS. In hindsight, I think it must have been some low grade Cdiff, kept under control by my good bacteria. I might have picked it up while doing pet therapy in a hospital, while my dad or mom were hospitalized or later in the nursing home. Ground meats and sausages from grocery stores in my city were tested and recently and C. diff bacteria in 30 percent of the samples, and the hypervirulent strain in several of those. So… who knows, could have been just anywhere. I have also been on PPI’s that lower my stomach acid due to severe reflux disease, so that was probably a contributing factor in my acquiring cdiff in the first place. When I took the clindamycin for dental work over 2 years ago now, that is when the dam burst, and I am still trying to patch that hole in that dam.

And I have an elderly dog but no cats. She seems fine, and I assume I did not get it from her and she has not caught it from me.

Good luck and get better

[diane]

Nan,

keep the faith it will go away!!!!!!!

[robert23]

Thanks everyone for your input! At some point I'll post of case history when it seems like there's some significant info to convey.

Best of luck to all!

[Bobbie]

Nan,
Sounds as though there are many reasons why you developed C. diff. & Clindamycin is probably one of the biggest ones. Vantin (also cephlasporin) contributed to my lst episode of C. diff.

I, too, am concerned about being on a PPI. Funny this is, though, when I first developed C. diff., I wasn't on a PPI. The 2nd time, I was put on a PPI because the allergist had me on so much prednisone for pneumonia (prior to an antibiotic - Levaquin) that it affected my esophagus. I was able to get off it, but developed acid reflux/hiatal hernia about 4 yrs. ago & have been on a PPI ever since. In Nov., I had pneumonia again, & wonder of all wonders, I did not develop C. diff. after a Z-pak.

C. diff. is a strange disease. You will eventually "beat it" -- but it is hard. I was "cured" by the broth method (see Doctors - Dr. Allen - KC) although it didn't work the first time. Diane's story is inspiring -- beating C. diff. after 3 yrs. through pulsing. Have you tried that method? (See FAQ-Pulsing.)

[Nan]

Thanks Diane, I am trying. And I am trying your very slow pulse dosing technique. Every once in a while I feel like rushing it, going faster, but then catch myself as I know that hasn’t worked in the past. I am remembering "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." (smile)

Bobbie, you always give great advice and thoughtful comments. Thanks again. I do believe my being on PPI to start with contributed to acquiring Cdiff in the first place. Don’t know if staying on them affects my recovery or not. I did try to go off of them several times lately, but I cannot as my reflux is too severe.

[Bobbie]

Nan,
Me, too. W/o the PPI & with a hiatal hernia, I am miserable. Sometimes have to choice quality over quantity of life. Also, remember, I was not on a PPI the lst time I had C. diff. but was the 2nd time & again when I took an antibiotic in Nov. There are results that show a correlation, but then again, studies are often negated later.