Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day?

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shooten
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby shooten » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:00 pm

Sunday was my first day of every third day, so tomorrow is a pill day. Today I am doing much better. I actually had a piece of cod and some potatoes for lunch, first real meal I have had in a couple days. The stomach tenderness has decreased. I had to take the day off work yesterday because the stomach pain was so bad. Perhaps all the sleeping yesterday helped. I also decreased my probiotic intake to see if that would minimize the stomach gurgling and burping I was had going on. I was taking 4 florastor, 2 blue biotics, and 8oz of kefir. Now I am doing 2 florastor and 1 bluebiotic (started this yesterday) and no kefir (my stomach didn't really get along with it). I took some zantac for the stomach pain and I also have been trying to go on a short 10 minute walk after I eat. So far it seems to be working because I feel much better today than I felt for the past three days. I relapsed twice after flagyl so hopefully this vancomycin taper/pulse does the trick.

Machaon
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby Machaon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:54 pm

Sounds like you're making it work! Nice going! Glad to hear about the improvement in your health and appetite!

When my insides start to gurgle, I keep waiting for something to happen. I get an image from the move "Alien", of the creature popping out of the man's chest.

How much, do you think, did the reduction of biotics and kefir have to do with you feeling better?

One would expect symptoms to worsen in between vanco. In my case, during this second day with vanco, increased gurgling and looser potties plus more discomfort down below. That you are feeling better could be a good sign. Perhaps your good flora is beginning to hold it's own?!

I've been doing pretty good since I started the pulsing. Have never lost my appetite. Have loose potties, but my diet is filled with salads and veggies and four eggs per day. I feel confident, but am cautious after reading about the many relapses on this board,
Male 77 S.Florida

900 weight lifts 750 knee bends day

Since 1987 had CHF afib asthma

I inhale $6 Flonase nasal spray for asthma :)

Ex C-diff (4/19/17- 9/12/17) after 10 days dificid

Diet:6 meals ~1500 cals 2 eggs 2 steamed broccoli, apple, bagels

Machaon
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby Machaon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:06 pm

I asked if symptoms returned during tapering/pulsing. I am on my first week of one vanco followed by two days without vanco. This is the second day without vanco and I just had a loose, runny potty with gurgling and some discomfort.

Did my little spore friends germinate and throw a party in my intestines? If so, I can't wait to zap them tomorrow morning with a vanco at 5am! Stressful! Hope they don't play their damn gurgling music all night long!
Male 77 S.Florida

900 weight lifts 750 knee bends day

Since 1987 had CHF afib asthma

I inhale $6 Flonase nasal spray for asthma :)

Ex C-diff (4/19/17- 9/12/17) after 10 days dificid

Diet:6 meals ~1500 cals 2 eggs 2 steamed broccoli, apple, bagels

shooten
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:00 pm

Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby shooten » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:18 pm

During the taper I didn't have any symptoms return but now on the pulse portion some symptoms have returned. My guts have been making a lot more noise and my BMs have gone from 1 a day to 3 or 4. That is the thought process behind the pulse, let the dormant spores germinate a bit so symptoms will return then hit the little devils with the antibiotic until hopefully you get them all. I will say, there is a paper of people using vancomycin a long with taking florastor and they have got good results. They think the florastor binds to the dormant spores and keeps them from producing the toxins and gives your body more time to replenish the good bacteria to fight off the remaining c diff.

shooten
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby shooten » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:25 pm

I think stopping the kefir helped, my body never liked it much. The blue biotics have 30 billion ctu per pill with 11 different strains of bacteria so with it and the florastor I don't think I really needed anymore probiotics which sucks cause I like the blueberry kefir. I can't believe you can eat salads and veggies. Raw vegetables cause me all kinds of issues. Since the c diff my body no longer processes are veggies which sucks because I used to eat salads almost every day. I can only eat well cooked veggies. I can't wait until I am healed enough to eat salads again.

georgina
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby georgina » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:40 am

For me it's been 2 years and 5 months since I cannot eat a spoonful of yogurt/kefir without getting sick although I'm not lactose intolerant , I have no problem with cheese and butter . I also have a problem with leafy greens , cannot tolerate any salad leafs ,they will go straight trough me undigested.

Machaon
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby Machaon » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:56 am

Fortunately, I have been able to eat just about anything, including salads and microwaved veggies.

This morning has been bad, though. I took 125mg vanco at 5am, my one pill every three days. At 8am had unpleasant,"urgent" potty. Had to open window! Feel ucky and a little bit weaker in my legs. Here we go again?

I was at the dentist yesterday. If I had had to go potty, it would have had the patients and staff running for the exit!

Vancomycin works for about 12 hours, losing it's strength over time. I am hoping that it knocks out enough of the germinated c-diff spores so that I can last two long days without a vanco, and that I can feel better and not lose my appetite. I take my probiotics at 5pm.

Vancomycin tapering/pulsing has been effective for others. We'll see what happens... :(

Edit: 9:50am Still gurgling, but feeling better. Ucky feeling almost gone. Legs feel better. Appetite. Vanco doing it's job, or temporary reprieve before next unpleasant event?
Last edited by Machaon on Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Male 77 S.Florida

900 weight lifts 750 knee bends day

Since 1987 had CHF afib asthma

I inhale $6 Flonase nasal spray for asthma :)

Ex C-diff (4/19/17- 9/12/17) after 10 days dificid

Diet:6 meals ~1500 cals 2 eggs 2 steamed broccoli, apple, bagels

shooten
Regular User
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:00 pm

Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby shooten » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:06 am

If this taper/pulse run doesn't work for me the one in this paper by Dr. Bakken is next on my list to try. He says to take vancomycin until BMs get close to normal and then do 3 pills a day every third day for 2 weeks, then 2 a day every third day, then 1 a day every third day. Here is a link to his study https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/59 ... rawal-With

Machaon
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby Machaon » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:26 am

Bakken's pulsing protocol sounds like a good idea! It includes Kefir several times a day.

Hopefully you won't have to go there. We both need a good outcome this time!
Male 77 S.Florida

900 weight lifts 750 knee bends day

Since 1987 had CHF afib asthma

I inhale $6 Flonase nasal spray for asthma :)

Ex C-diff (4/19/17- 9/12/17) after 10 days dificid

Diet:6 meals ~1500 cals 2 eggs 2 steamed broccoli, apple, bagels

Machaon
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Posts: 254
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 11:50 am

Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby Machaon » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:10 pm

I've read many times that, unless you get three watery diarrhea in one day, you don't necessarily have C-diff.

Well... I know my body. Something is attacking me today and it is because of dropping the vanco pulsing down to one per day, and it is definitely C-diff! This is my first poorly feeling day in weeks! I was doing great with two vancos followed by two days without vanco, etc. Now, at one vanco, followed by two days without, I am not doing so well.

If this continues, or worsens, I am going back to two vancos.

On the other hand, I might choose to tough-it-out, if I feel that the one vanco per day is doing a better job of killing hatched spores. Is it just allowing more spores to germinate and wreck havoc on my insides?

What to do!? I don't want this vanco pulsing to fail. I don't want a another nasty, debilitating C-diff infection!
Male 77 S.Florida

900 weight lifts 750 knee bends day

Since 1987 had CHF afib asthma

I inhale $6 Flonase nasal spray for asthma :)

Ex C-diff (4/19/17- 9/12/17) after 10 days dificid

Diet:6 meals ~1500 cals 2 eggs 2 steamed broccoli, apple, bagels

shooten
Regular User
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:00 pm

Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby shooten » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:29 pm

I had no issues during the taper and was fairly good on my 1 pill a day every other day minus having sharp stomach pain at the end of that week. I am now on 1 pill every third day. Monday and Tuesday were skip days and today was a pill day and I can say today was not as good, the spores germinated and BM were more urgent. I took my pill around 8am and it is now 3:30pm and I am doing much better. Things have calmed down so hopefully the pulse is doing its job.

Also I e-mailed Dr. Bakken to clarify his pulse protocol. He said during the pulse you are supposed to take all the pills at one time instead of spacing them throughout the day.

Machaon
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby Machaon » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:49 pm

shooten wrote:
> I
> am now on 1 pill every third day. Monday and Tuesday were skip days and
> today was a pill day and I can say today was not as good, the spores
> germinated and BM were more urgent.

At the moment, we are on exactly the same schedule. I felt good when I woke up. I took vanco at 5am and then started feeling lousy, maybe because of the battle going on in my gut between vanco and C-diff germinating spores. I also had unpleasant potties.

I had decided to go back to two vanco per day, and was going to take another vanco at 5pm.

> I took my pill around 8am and it is now
> 3:30pm and I am doing much better. Things have calmed down so hopefully the
> pulse is doing its job.

Likewise, I am feeling better. Not great, but better. I'm going to take double my probiotics at 5pm instead of vanco and see what happens.

Like you, I'm wondering if the pulse is working?

Please let me know if you get a response from Dr. Bakken.

Regards, Bob
Male 77 S.Florida

900 weight lifts 750 knee bends day

Since 1987 had CHF afib asthma

I inhale $6 Flonase nasal spray for asthma :)

Ex C-diff (4/19/17- 9/12/17) after 10 days dificid

Diet:6 meals ~1500 cals 2 eggs 2 steamed broccoli, apple, bagels

beth22
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby beth22 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:07 pm

Not sure, but I think Dr. Bakken is retired. Maybe he still checks e-mails even if he is.

roy
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Re: Vancomycin tapering/pulsing. During tapering, do symptoms return partially? Fully? At 2x per day? Then at 1x per day

Postby roy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:09 pm

Please don't use the quote feature, it uses up space.
That means we lock the thread sooner.
This thread has reached the 2 page limit so feel free to start a new one.


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